do audiobooks count toward readathon pages for kids?
curious on your opinion — do audiobooks count toward readathon pages for kids?
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curious on your opinion — do audiobooks count toward readathon pages for kids?
Yes.
In particular if you Child has a reading disability, or is struggling to pick up the skills. But, when I listen to an audiobook, I count it as a book “read”. I don’t it should’ve any different for children! ?
I’d say no.
Definitely
This is tough to me – depends on the age of the kid to me. I mean, if we’re talking about a young kid learning to read, I think the written word is important in that learning process. If they’re older, an audiobook may work.
oh there’s no hold up with learning to read. she is 7 (3rd grade) and reading at a 6th-7th grade level. On day 1 of the readathon, she read 1,136 pages (mixed fiction/novels and poetry books by kwame alexander). She just likes to listen to audiobooks when she is putting her laundry away, or cleaning her room, or snuggling with me in her rocking chair… we weren’t sure whether or not she can count those. she’s listening to bethany hamilton’s book: Soul Surfer right now
Given her reading comprehension, I would count it. But that would probably be up to the teacher ;-). Awesome on your daughter’s love of reading!
While your daughter is rocking the reading, others may not, so the teacher may want everyone on “an even playing field”. If a child having trouble reading hears your kiddo is listening to a book, then they can’t exactly tell that kid “No, you’re not up to par, you have to do the written word only”. That’s my thought on why to ask the teacher. 🙂
Yes, agreed. It’s clearly a mixed opinion, even amongst the brilliant minds on this site. Asked the teacher and will see what she says tomorrow. If it brings any controversy at all, we won’t count it. Luckily, it’s not a bad thing for the school if she logs more pages — her sponsors pay per page
Absolutely! I say this as a former teacher. I count my audiobooks and always let my students count them for class reading. Reading is reading.
While I think it counts for adults to listen to audiobooks, I do think that while kids are perfecting their reading and reading comprehension skills, they should be reading the written words if they are so able. Reading is more than just hearing a story, it’s seeing words, style, grammar, etc in play. I think that’s invaluable.
Listening isn’t reading.
No but if you factor in different types of learners and what educators know about how people absorb information then to rule it out entirely becomes exclusionary. There is a place for both and in terms of the enjoyment of absorbing literary masterpieces why would anyone want to be exclusionary about that?
Thank you both! I really enjoy hearing the thoughts of everyone who replied. I have pretty mixed feelings about it myself, as I really enjoy both! Sometimes, I check out both forms from the library and go back and forth within the same book depending on how many mindless chores I have to do that day.
????
Darn. Don’t know how my blind friend will take it when I break the news to her that she’s not read anything.
@Ariannah Ha, how funny. Good point.
Aria Armstrong ty I am visually impaired and can not read books. All my reading is audio. My imagination, interpretation, questioning, emotional connections with a book are the same as a sighted reader. My mind still works the same just not my eyes. Self reading or listening still requires the same amount of imput from your brain to establish the realationship needed to understand the story being read/heard.
Ask the teacher, or whoever is in charge. I’d say no if it’s children in elementary school – they need to exercise their reading skills (as opposed to listening and comprehension).
Agreed if the purpose is a technical reading skill then absolutely mandate reading written words but if the purpose is to absorb information and content then both options should be allowed
Thank you! Will do
“The action or skill of reading written or printed matter silently or aloud.” While I don’t care whether individuals count audiobooks as having read them, I never will. Do listening to songs count as reading poetry? (Sorry, this is pet peeve of mine.)
I have sponsored readathons and always allowed students to use books they heard read aloud. An audiobook is no different. So yes, they should be allowed but check to see if the guidelines for this readathon are different.
Depends on what the local rules are…
Negative
The only benefit you don’t get from an audio book is learning to spell. All the other benefits are the same. If her reading is strong and the point is the book itself it counts.
My son’s school counts them if he reads along with the book.
I think it’s totally your call as a parent, and it depends on what kind of reader the child is. For example, I’m a teacher who works with students who are struggling readers. I would absolutely count a book that was read to them, or a book that they listened to as a way of keeping them from getting fatigued with reading on their own. It also depends on the age of the child. When my children were in preschool, they participated in the library read a thons , but I did most of the reading aloud to them. I think it’s your call!
Children are still improving reading skills-comprehension, etc. so I say no to counting audiobooks as a read novel.
Comprehension isn’t changed with an audiobook. Your thinking of word attack skills, because you need to see the words for that. But it depends on what your purpose of the readathon is…usually it’s for enjoyment and appreciation of the books, not word decoding.
My main reason for not counting audiobooks as reading is that they remove some of the element of imagination. Someone else is now making decisions about tone, inflection, etc. Someone else is choosing for me how each line should sound. I enjoy audiobooks, but to me they still feel like an adaptation – not as distant from the source material as, say, a film, but still not the original source material, instead being the source material filtered through someone else’s perspective and interpretation.
I’m a teacher. I would count those minutes, just as I would allow minutes where family members read to or with a student. Granted not all teachers would agree. Students benefit from hearing good readers read.
Thank you! I’ve asked her teacher to be sure. My husband and I are mixed on our thoughts, but I find it an interesting question. I totally agree that kids benefit from hearing good readers read — I’ve always “started” books for them that were outside their wheelhouse, to get them hooked into the book. We’ve explored quite a lot of historical books that way, or sometimes if the content is something just beyond what they might usually pick out. I think that now, when they read, part of the love of it is that they can hear the characters “talking” in their heads, and can hear the flow of the words. My daughter absolutely loves poetry because of this.
I’d say no. Assuming the child isn’t vision impaired, but even then I’d still prefer braille over audio. The child can better create their own inner narrator.
I’ve worked with the blind. Braille is expensive. And depending on the condition that caused the blindness, sometimes their fine sensitivity to feel braille is affected.
And those kids who will never have the opportunity to read a book independently because they have dyslexia or intellectually challenged? So the answer is to further exclude them from language based activities when they need them as much if not more than neurotypical learners……..?
@Wendy I was responding with the assumption of neurotypical.
@Ariannah understood, but what I’m getting at is that many audio books provide so much verbal coloring that it detracts from the individual’s own mental processing. Obviously if there is another challenge involved then that needs to be accounted for, and I’m not saying what I did in a definitive way.
I wouldn’t count it because it doesn’t provide the same skills as reading. They are taking in information and enjoying literature, but they aren’t practicing the skill of reading, which requires concentration, stumbling on new vocabulary words and sounding them out, and processing letters/shapes into sounds. It’s a whole different skill set.
As a children’s librarian, I feel the most important thing is to raise a child’s exposure to books and their positive experience with reading. If audio books help with that, why not. They are not learning any less. Otherwise, college lecture style classes would be a waste of money.
Also if a child is visually impaired with no access to Braille, audio book may be their only option for reading.
Braille is expensive to produce. Take the Harry Potter series for instance in the link. (I’ve used braillers, too. It’s hard work) https://m.csmonitor.com/2003/0701/p12s01
@Ariannah interesting, didn’t know this, though it makes sense!
Also some conditions affect the sensitivity of the fingertips. I have been involved with CNIB in Canada. Met blind folks with many different issues relating to their vision loss.
My 13yo daughter loves reading, and is a straight ‘A’ student with a work ethic that would knock your socks off.
Because she dances 10+ hours a week, plays piano, performs with a bell choir, and does other things, she relies on audiobooks, which she can enjoy while walking, doing chores, drawing, or whatever.
****
Our other daughter, now 24yo, was always a struggling reader…still is…and enjoys audiobooks so that she can enjoy the story.
Yes, I always counted them when doing summer reading programs but I guess you should check in with whomever is organizing the program.
No
No. While listening to books exposes you to great literature and enjoyable books, it is not reading. The point of any readathon is to get kids reading. It’s not about the story, it’s about the words. The difference in spelling between like words, the subtle difference between words that have like meanings, the authors use of irony…. the list goes on. Kids need to read.
It is reading to people with print disabilities…
@Lisa very true, but that was not the question. The question was should audio books count for a summer readathon for kids. Obviously, if a child has a disability it’s a different story, but without any learning disabilities, reading is better for learning.
Sorry I disagree. Reading is so much more than decoding words. This is one reason our students are not always sucessful readers…people believe reading is only know what words are on the page. Listening is also a form of reading and gaining from a book.
If it wasn’t about the story, no one would bother reading. We string words together to create story.
Yes. ~English teacher
Thank you!
If they are actively following along
There are several parts to reading. The physical process of eyes across a page and decoding words is only one part of reading. I say it counts.
So how about watching the movie? ??
Ha! Opening a whole ‘nother can of worms…. I must say I have been enjoying all the thoughts so far. Some common themes and very divided opinion, and some things I hadn’t thought of
NO
Yes!!!!
Thank you — it’s a viewpoint I hadn’t considered before.
Yes! But I see this two ways. I struggle with dyslexia, have my whole life. For that reason, and due to misdiagnosis, I didn’t really learn to read until I was about 8 and didn’t get into it until I was about 13. Audiobooks can certainly help tell a story and can help us BUT with that being said, I would have never been able to learn to work with dyslexia (and continue to do every day) if I had audiobooks at a younger age – if that makes sense.
Kids – yes as I would hope it helps build a love for literature. Adults – no.
Why adults-no?
I bought Frankenstein for my boys in high school because I hated the book. 🙂 But they were awesome readers and I didn’t think of it as cheating as they were at least listening to the book and digesting the story.
I don’t think so, just because sitting down, actively reading, and comprehending, displays a type of maturity and discipline that just isn’t the same that’s required when listening to an audiobook. Many adults don’t even have that type of discipline though so I do understand if audiobook are necessary
No. It teaches 0 reading a writing skills, no word recognition.
Your right it teaches zero decoding words. BUT reading is so much more. It also about comprehension, inference, plot development, themes, characters, sequencing, foreshadowing, predictiction. I could go on. All of those parts of reading can be done while listening to the book. So only one part would be missing and that can be done a thousand times a day.
Research this–studies have found otherwise.
Yes. Audiobooks totally count.
Yes, with permission of the teacher.
Probably not strictly, but the teacher in me would want to support kids with learning issues. It sounds like your child is a good reader so I’d only count the pages she read herself. If she follows along with the audio text with a book in hand then I’d say it could count. It would depend on who organized it and the rules established and if there are prizes involved.
I vote for partial credit. If it gets them hooked on story as a passion, Yay! But we process differently through those different faculties. Actual reading will grow both their brain and a life-long love of reading more profoundly. But audio books are better than nothing. A combo of the two, where they can switch back and forth between the media to cram more reading into their day could be a great option.
P.S. I just saw your note about her reading level and engagement level – in that case, then I say full credit!! Especially if it carries her over some years where she might be inclined to pull away from it.
I’ll let my blind friend know that it’s not really reading
@Lora exactly.
@Lora Okay, exception for the cognitively and sensory disabled, can we agree?
@Lora, I was answering solely in the context of the poster’s inquiry, not in broader context. Of course it qualifies as 100% reading for the blind! In fact, I listen to audio of whatever I’m reading just about every day, mostly via text-to-speech.
@James , agreed.
I don’t agree. I just finished a graduate class on reading instruction and yes audio books are also reading. Not just reading for the disabled.
If it counts for the blind then it also counts for those with vision. Reading is more than decoding words. The important part of reading is actually teasing out the meanings, plots, themes, character development, foreshadowing, understanding the intricate meaningful use and choice if words. All of those things can be taught with audio books. The only thing missing are phonics, sight words and decoding strategies, all if which can be accomplished in academics.
@Lora I have taught reading and diagnose reading disabilities and dyslexia. I read to my children, and I agree listening to books is a motivator and helps you learn the rhythm and flow of language and story, but I would not have been satisfied if my children and students had not moved on to reading on their own.
I was answering on the basis of my own point of view, yes, but also from the guidelines of the readathon my daughter participated in. Reading, being read to, reading aloud to others, and audio books all counted. ?
I’m not saying they do not read and decode words. I’m saying that a student can get as much out of an audio book as a physical book. They still need to read for math, science, health, grammar. It is not either or. It still counts as reading a book. But your answer No it isn’t reading is so wrong because it is.
Absolutely yes! Being read to and reading to others also counts, of course!
Thanks for bringing up being read to, and reading to others. That interpersonal component creates Both emotional connections and synaptic connections.
The way a readathon works is you have people making pledges toward however many pages she reads? or how many minutes? If all her sponsors give a flat donation then it probably doesn’t matter if it strictly counts.
I guess it depends on your definition of what reading is. If you believe reading is understanding the content of the story or the theme, then audiobooks certainly count. No one would argue the importance of decoding in teaching children to read. But, understanding the message, thinking critically about the content, using imagination, and making connections is at the heart of what it means to be a reader.
And audiobooks narrated by the author. Ahhhhmazing!!
YES! Audiobooks are not cheating!!!
No
No they don’t in my school as you are encouraging them to read not listen.
Don’t know, but they should. Study after study verifies the positive effects of listening to a book are equal, and in some ways superior, to reading a paper book. Both have value and should not be discounted but encouraged.
https://www.thecut.com/2016/08/listening-to-a-book-instead-of-reading-isnt-cheating.html
Thanks for sharing, LaVonne!
http://www.ala.org/aasl/sites/ala.org.aasl/files/content/aaslpubsandjournals/slr/vol16/SLR_Use_of_AudiobooksV16.pdf
@Lavonne cool! Thanks!!!
https://www.understood.org/en/school-learning/assistive-technology/assistive-technologies-basics/will-listening-to-audiobooks-make-it-harder-for-my-third-grader-to-learn-to-read
There’s so much out there–
@Lavonne wow, you are so knowledgeable in this area! I’m grateful. ?
@Leah We had one guy in the PBS book club that insisted ebooks are not real reading either. Oh the arguments that ensued! A book is a book is a book ?
@Lavonne I agree with you. ?
I guess that would be the school’s call… As an adult, I says that it does count. If you are actively engaged in the listening process and know what the author is trying to convey to you, then you’ve read the book regardless of the intake method.
The exact same words are used (if unabridged) and the same language comprehension is required. They are called audio *books*, and what do we do with books? I remember as a child playing with walkie-talkies. “Do you *read* me?” was how we established a clear signal.
I think it depends entirely. Does the child have the ability to listen and comprehend without getting distracted? Are they doing it just to ‘win’ but really it’s just background noise. What are the rules of the program? If they are actually listening and absorbing then I personally don’t see why not but not every child can do this. I also think there is value in learning to read words and comprehend them and so it’s important to be able to see words and recognize them. Tests in school aren’t going to be read to them every time. Text books aren’t always available to be read to them.
She described her daughter’s listening habits earlier
I think we are talking about the books that are read at home. They still read books in school. This is not instead of but in addition to.
Reading is not exclusively visual. I’d say it counts. A signal —-> understanding process is a “reading” and our culture seems to have, in a very short time, shifted away from this understanding.
The purpose of a Readathon is to encourage a child to read (thus improving skills) not to listen.
Again reading is not just decoding words. It is a much more intricate process that is totally practiced and mastered when listening. Why do you think teachers read aloud and parents read aloud. I guess we can only learn about music by playing an instrument if your logic was true.
The concern here is that the difference between being read to by an audiobook as opposed to being read to by a teacher or parent is that the audiobook goes at a pace which offers little time for the student to try to comprehend the word before it’s gone on to the next one. There is also no interaction. True, being read to can help for new readers, absolutely! I’d be sparing with the use of audiobooks, though. If this is concerning someone who has the ability to power through pages themselves then I’d say no, don’t count it.
BEing read to and reading yourself aren’t the same thing, so no I don’t think so.
My daughter struggled with reading so I would get her the audio book and the physical book. She would read along with the narrator. Now she enjoys just reading and getting lost in the story.
If the student is actively trying to read along outloud then, yes. It also depends on the ability level of the student. If the student is has developed a good grasp on reading already then I’d say no, don’t count it.
We need a new verb to describe listening to an audio book whether you are fully sighted, dyslexic or just have not yet developed reading skills. There is nothing right or wrong about audio books and listening to them is not “cheating” because reading is not a competitive discipline. Although I am beginning to wonder ?
Or even better, we might throwback, and remember that “reading” also includes “understanding” or “interpreting” in the definition. (“I’m getting a reading on this radio signal”) Reading text visually is not the only way to read. Understanding the canon being read counts as reading. Visual reading and Audio reading.
I have a blind friend (two glass eyes) who “watches hockey” and who “reads books” and he says so without apology or pause.
People say, “oh it only counts if you’re blind”. Well, if he and I have read the same audio book, we can both discuss it along with the folks who have the paperback in their bag.
I don’t read many audio books, as I find it *harder* than visual reading. My mind wanders and I have to click the back arrow all the time and it takes me a half hour to get through a paragraph.
Yes I think so.
IMHO…no. It’s not reading, the brain responds differently when we read.
This could go either way!
Totally! Audiobooks are great especially for kids with reading issues and English learners
Story telling began as an oral tradition–the written words were added much later. How do professionals in child development tell us how to turn your child into a reader? Read to them before they can even seemingly understand the words–and keep reading aloud to them well after. Read the studies I posted earlier. To claim that hearing audio books is somehow not reading is as ludicrous as claiming ebooks are not reading. Yes, we need to teach young children to also be able to decode words by sight, just as the studies also state.
What is a book? It is words arranged in sentences to convey meaning and tell a story. Having different delivery methods only enhances the possibilities, and one should not be deemed as superior over the other–but all embraced and encouraged. For a school program to say audio books are not allowed, says the opposite. If it were my child, and they knew how to read by sight as yours does, I would simply let my child choose without even asking the program administrators, and encourage my child to read with a mix of delivery methods.
My grandfather was blind. Other than having my mother read to me from the day I was born, my first introduction to audio books (for the blind they were called “talking books”), was when I was probably four or five-years-old. I would sit with him and listen to Shakespeare plays being read. He happened to be one of the most well-read people I’ve ever known. I’ve never stopped reading since–and love Shakespeare.
I can’t count the number of books I’ve read while driving in my car. The other drivers on the road might become a little upset if I chose the paper book delivery method while driving. 😉
Audio books are NOT cheating. They are in fact the earliest form of story-telling, and thankfully the advent of technology has made “talking books” available without the unfortunate circumstance of losing our eyesight.
Read away ?
@Jenny My mother was a great Charles Dickens fan, so I also received heavy doses of long novels with multitudes of characters as a young child 😉 It did me no harm and gave me wonderful memories. I am 60-years-old and love that I can download a “talking book” for a little instant gratification–and listen to it in the shower, on a walk, in the car, crocheting, cleaning–oh the possibilities! I also read on Kindle, and paper books.
The Shakespeare talking books were performances, so had different voices for different characters and a few sound effects along the way. This also helps maintain attention I expect.
My siblings and I also spent innumerable hours listening to these on our LP record player. Each Christmas we would each receive a new story.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=tale+spinners+for+children
That should be fun to explore — hmmm… I think the story of Beethoven next.
@Jenny I love that these are also available for instant gratification, and that I can listen to them now. The familiarity is comforting. The album covers make me quite nostalgic.
Semantics
@James And freedom.
Freedom? I read to my children, all 4, from birth to 10 years old. I read to my classes as a teacher, every day. I’m not oppressing anyone. The processes, though closely related, are different. My children are all now independent readers. If they had a disability, or if they preferred, they are welcome to listen to books. But it is not reading, it is listening. Also valid in lots of ways.
@James I find your views very narrow and short sighted. I’m sorry but I so disagree with you.
The undisputed purpose of learning to read is to comprehend. Although children are initially limited in what they can read independently, comprehension instruction can occur as soon as they enter school. Comprehension depends, firstly, on a large, working vocabulary and substantial background knowledge. Even before children can read for themselves, teachers can build this vital background knowledge by reading interactively and frequently to children from a variety of narrative and expository texts, chosen in part for their ability to expand what children know about the world around them.
@Lora You can disagree, but “narrow and short sighted” are pretty unnecessary for this conversation.
@Lora No argument, that was my point.
As I said, we are disagreeing over semantics. The brain processes are very similar in dealing with the information presented. And yes, you can do all the same mental gymnastics with either format. I am talking about the skill of conveying information by written symbols. It a moot point, as the physical act of reading will likely go the same way as the physical act of handwriting. But semantically ‘reading’ is not the same as ‘listening.’ That difference is not a point that it seems necessary to be rude about…
Thank you everyone! I really do appreciate reading all your insights and the background behind them — plenty to think about. I think I will turn off commenting at this point. I enjoy a good debate, but I think we’ve gained what we can from this one. Look forward to hearing about your upcoming books!
I would say yes, if they are actively engaged with the book, can talk about it, perhaps even hold a copy of it, especially if a “picture” book
I was thinking that too — level of engagement matters in audio-listening. When she is sitting on my lap and making faces in response to the book, I know it is registering as meaningful
I know several blind people who were visually impaired since childhood. Even for the ones that don’t know braille, they know how to spell, and are very well versed in sending emails, and can touch type, more quickly than you can blink. They may not get their osmosis spelling lesson through visually looking at a book, but with today’s technology, spelling and grammar are accessible.
Yes!
No, unless for some reason the child cannot read
As a teacher, I would say yes.
Yes
I think when you’re learning to read it is equal parts consumption of story as it is practicing word development, tone, flow, etc.
If it’s for a fun challenge? Totally. But for daily reading practice? No. Young minds need to practice word on page to brain transfer.